Response to Profs. Smith and Waldstein Regarding Christopher West

by David Schindler

Provost/Dean and Gagnon Professor of Fundamental Theology at the Pontifical John Paul II Institute for Studies on Marriage and Family

I appreciate the not unexpected personal testimony on behalf of Christopher West by my former Notre Dame colleagues, Janet Smith and Michael Waldstein. Both of these Catholic professors are justly well- respected for their work on behalf of embryonic human life and the family, and Waldstein also for his fine translation of John Paul II’s discourses on the theology of the body.

The differences between Smith-Waldstein and myself with respect to the propriety of my statement regarding West’s work seem to me to stem most of all from our differences with respect to the nature and seriousness of (possible) problems embodied in that work. I will first respond regarding “methodological” issues (I), and then return to the substance of the issues raised in my posted statement (II).

I. (1) I am surprised by the weight Professor Waldstein gives to the Nightline interview. As emphasized in the opening sentences of my statement, West’s Nightline appearance was the occasion but not the reason for my statement, whose purpose was to “address West’s theology as a whole.” Indeed, the statement was one I had considered making in some forum for a long time – hence my reference to West’s comments (sensationalized to be sure by the Nightline editors) “as the latest in a long list of statements and actions.” In this light readers presumably can see that Waldstein’s charging me with an “act of injustice” for accepting “ABC’s spin at face value” and using it against West is without warrant.

As many people are aware, West was a student of mine some ten years ago; also, we exchanged substantial correspondence regarding his work in its early years; and I’ve listened to some of his tapes, watched some of his videos, and read some of his writings. Over the years, I’ve also had innumerable questions and comments (mostly unsolicited), brought to me by those who have attended his lectures and workshops, and indeed by representatives of diocesan offices, usually by virtue of my position as Dean of the John Paul II Institute in Washington.

(2) Waldstein’s and Smith’s repeated insistence on the need for substantiation on my part in terms specifically of West’s written work is puzzling–because disproportionate. Good Aristotelians that they are, they know that not all evidence comes in the form of written documents. This is certainly true in the present case. West is not primarily an author of books, but a public lecturer, a publisher of tapes and videos, and a director of an institute offering study programs. He has also appeared, not against his will, on national television.

Massively more people thus have heard West than have read him (he has sold one million books and three million tapes, for example). Not surprisingly in this context, much evidence undergirding criticism of West has come via the many people who have encountered West in these different forums, and who have then brought their concerns to me. What one rightly does in such a context is pay attention to the character and number of incidents, to the consistency of what is reported, and to the credibility of those reporting, assessing all of this in terms of its correspondence with one’s own direct knowledge and experience – all sound Aristotelian methodology.

Waldstein and Smith seem to assume that a given criticism, insofar as it lacks explicit justification in terms of some recent published text of West, is thereby without warrant. As a result, they tend repeatedly to demand evidence where it would have been more reasonable simply to have addressed the substance of the issues on their own intrinsic terms. 

(3) Consistent with the foregoing, Waldstein and Smith both insist that my arguments should have been made in a different forum, developed in slower, scholarly fashion, and finally published in an appropriate journal, rather than using the media to create a firestorm. Needless to say, this would be the proper way of proceeding in normal circumstances. But Waldstein and Smith fail, again, to take sufficiently into account the implications of the fact that West is a popular public figure. As I said in my posted comments, I decided to put forward a public statement only with much reluctance. I did so only because it has seemed to me in the present situation that the great numbers of people who have experienced some uneasiness in their encounters with West’s work – not only as edited in the Nightline interview, but also and primarily in his lectures, tapes, videos, and workshops – need to know that this uneasiness has an objective foundation in the work of West itself: it is a consequence not only or always of unconscious “Puritanism” on their part, but often simply of their spontaneous and authentic human and Catholic instincts.

The purpose of my statement was thus to identify the objective pattern–order and emphasis–of West’s theology which in my opinion warrants such uneasiness. My hope in so doing was not to cause him to fail in his projects, but to help establish a horizon of objective concerns, awareness and discussion, which seem to me essential for any adequately conceived theology of love and of the body.
  
(4) Regarding Waldstein: what he dismisses as “a few anecdotes” and “snippets of texts” in fact indicate a pattern in the order and emphasis of West’s theology over the years, and they have all been verified (and there are more), though of course I recognize that West would surely want to give them a different interpretation. This pattern is outlined in my four criticisms. I suspect Waldstein knows that his reference to “a few anecdotes” and “snippets” amounts to a rhetorical dismissal that begs the answers to what are scarcely impertinent questions. Does he see no pattern? Does he think that the statements and actions cited are isolated incidents or inoffensive matters, bearing no implications relative to my four criticisms? That the statements and actions did not take place? Assuming the accuracy of what is reported in the examples, what interpretation would Waldstein give them, and (how) would he defend them?

(5) In response to Smith: first, with respect to the examples of West’s language that I characterized as vulgar, I would reaffirm that some things just ought not to be talked about in a public setting, on the grounds not of prudishness but of simple human decorum and respect for others. This is not a matter simply of identifying euphemisms to replace vulgar language, nor simply of avoiding mention of acts that may be immoral. Smith herself indicates a personal sensitivity with respect to public speech about sexual matters, but then affirms that West’s style can appeal to those who have been formed by our culture, suffused as it is by sexual content.

My own view is that the habit of communication of the dominant culture, which knows no discreet activities that ought not to be fully exposed, and no mysteries that ought not to be fully unveiled, is precisely what needs to be called into question, by both the form and the content of an authentically Christian-human response. To be sure, this does not mean that things which ought not to be talked about publicly should not be addressed in private — for example, if a personal question needs to be clarified or if counseling is warranted.

(6) Smith appears to think that theological errors can be serious only insofar as there has been some explicit magisterial definition pertinent to the matters under discussion. But this misconstrues the dynamics of doctrinal development and magisterial definition in history. Magisterial definition normally occurs as a later but integral part of the process of clarification, undertaken for the sake of the unity of the Church. Magisterial clarification, in other words, normally presupposes the theological discussion that uncovers the errors in the first place, even as it then judges regarding the latter.

The point is that determining whether theological error exists and the extent of its significance is rightly accomplished only by first assessing the issues on their own merits. In this context, Professor Smith’s referring to reputable scholars who have disagreed with me in other matters and of authorities testifying to West’s orthodoxy serves mostly to beg, and not answer, the substance of the issues I have raised. In a word, whether or in what sense my criticisms raise significant issues can only be determined by giving an account in terms of the issues themselves.

Let me turn, then, to the content of the issues raised.

II. (7) Professor Waldstein addresses one of these issues. Asserting that my criticism of West in the matter of concupiscence “misses the target,” Waldstein provides what seems to me a clear outline of the Catholic position in this matter. He then gives his personal testimony that the position he outlines is the one that West himself “highlights in his writings and presentations.” Waldstein concludes by suggesting that, in my critique of West, I “sound almost as if” I deny the Catholic position.

What I reject, however, is not the Catholic position regarding concupiscence as Waldstein states it, but only his claim that that position can be unambiguously claimed also as West’s. Waldstein rightly says that “in the sexual sphere, true growth in virtue is possible; virtue can overcome the tendency to sin, though objective concupiscence and the consequent danger of sin remain real.” But understanding this in an appropriately Catholic way depends entirely on qualifying properly the sense in which true growth in virtue – under the transforming power of grace – does overcome the tendency to sin, relative to “objective concupiscence and the consequent danger to sin.”

There seem to me three issues regarding West’s understanding in this context, all of them involving just this question of qualification and emphasis. The first regards the emphasis placed on the subject’s intention and will, or the “heart,” in matters involving the sexual body and relations between men and women. He often stresses, for example, that the body is good and “the problem with lust is in your heart.” The question is whether, in stressing purity of heart, he gives sufficient weight to the continued objective presence in the body of the fomes peccati (the tendency to sin), however much mitigated by virtue and grace. Even saints do not escape the infralapsarian state of their existence.

The question, secondly, is whether, in treating the will immediately in relation to the transforming power of grace and the Gospel, he gives sufficient weight to the necessary mediating role of natural-human virtue.

The question, thirdly, is whether, in the matter of nakedness in the relations between spouses, he gives adequate weight to the distinction between modesty and shame. He suggests that the naked body in the spousal context is always “decent,” and that only an indecent look makes it indecent. But this misses the need for a reverence that takes us beyond the categories of decent and indecent: a reverence deriving from the mystery contained in the body whose unveiling requires a sensitivity to time and to place which is not simply a function of sin and hence shame. (For a discussion by West that I believe illustrates all three of the problems indicated here, see “Naked Without Shame,” 2nd ed, Tape #5.)

To be sure, there is an essential truth to be affirmed in West’s position as outlined on these three points. But this essential truth is secured in its authentic Catholic meaning only by being properly qualified. And the question is whether West’s (to me) one-sided emphasis in each case does not serve to overwhelm the subtle but crucial distinctions needed to safeguard that meaning in its integrity. (Lest one be tempted to think that subtle distinctions in this context are merely “academic” in Professor’s Smith’s sense of the term, we should recall that all of the most important matters involved in Church doctrines turn on just such subtle distinctions.)

Needless to say, ambiguity on the three points noted here can quickly slide one toward a dangerous imprudence in matters of sexuality.

(8) The second question raised in my statement concerns the matter of what is termed analogy. The burden of the issue is twofold: first, the body introduces something genuinely new into the meaning of love. The soul and the body, of course, are unified in the human person, and the body thus shares in love as love’s sign and expression. But love has its roots most basically in the soul, and ultimately in God. Sex and gender do not, properly speaking, exist in persons who are not embodied – angels and God – but rather indicate the new form that love takes when it takes form in the human-embodied person. On the one hand, love always transcends, is always something other and more than, sexuality. On the other hand, sexuality, as sign and expression of love, really does reveal in an essential way the meaning of love.

In a word, what is proper to the love that begins in the spirit and ultimately in God is revealed in the body in a new and different way, in the sexual difference. It is this unity coincident with (ever-greater) difference (maior dissimilitudo ) that is termed analogy.

Second, regarding the human body itself. John Paul II says that the body in its “original solitude” is “substantially prior” to the body in its “original unity” and hence in its sexual difference (see Man and Woman He Created Them, p. 157; General Audience, 7 November 1979). This means that the body in its most original sense is made for God. The body, we may say, bears what is first a filial relation to God. As a creature (hence child) of God, I bear a basic relation to or capacity for God, and only consequently, though simultaneously, inside this relation, do I bear a capacity for another human being. Indeed, this filial relation is rightly understood as a “virginal” relation – bearing a different shape in the celibate and married states – because it involves the whole of my being in relation to the whole God.

It is crucial to understand that this original filial relation to God retains its priority within the relation between spouses, though the filial and spousal relations are “circumincessive” within each other: that is, they each illuminate the inner meaning of the other, in their own distinct ways. In the terms of Joseph Ratzinger, filial love is the “content” (Inhalt), and spousal love the “consequence” (Folge) of the imago Dei. The two loves, united in the human being’s single imaging of God, nevertheless bear an order that accords filial love absolute priority within this unity. Or, to put it differently, filial love and spousal love bear a mutual but asymmetrical relation within what is always the unified content of the human being’s imaging of God.

The overarching point here, then, is that sexual love as understood in the work of John Pope II must be inserted within a love between spouses that itself takes its most radical meaning from filial relation to God. Sexual-spousal love participates in this more original filial relation to God as its sign and expression, but does so only as consequent to and distinct from this more original filial relation.

At least three consequences follow from the above, in summary: first, sexually differentiated love must be approached most basically in terms of the love of God in its infinite difference as revealed in Jesus Christ and his Eucharist, and indeed as revealed in the natural order of things created by God. Secondly, the filial love proper to the body in its original solitude establishes the primacy of the virginal state already in the natural order, and thus indicates that there is a virginal fruitfulness that takes priority over marital-sexual fruitfulness, though each of these forms of fruitfulness illumines and enhances the inner meaning of the other. Thirdly, filial-“virginal” love for God entails love for all of his creatures, who bear a unity within their common relation to God–a hierarchical unity, that is, with man at the pinnacle, as microcosm, as Maximus the Confessor taught. Theology of the body, in other words, entails a view of sexually differentiated love that opens intrinsically to even as it needs illumination by an anthropology and a cosmology–in a word, an ontology–of love.

These three points suggest the comprehensive meaning of the theology of the body and indeed sexually differentiated spousal love. This love retains an essential, analogically-conceived place in our understanding of love, human and divine. The point is simply that it does so only as always qualified by and integrated in light of the differences introduced in each of these points.

Of course, this does not mean that one must address all these different senses of love on every occasion, or that one cannot legitimately devote sustained specific attention to any one of them. The point is simply that one must address each of them only in light of its analogically differentiated integration with the others. One must always be clear that the theology of the body is not synonymous with a theology of sexuality.

(9) The third of my criticisms meant to indicate the sense in which the Church’s Marian mystery, and also the feminine dimension, are central for the theology of the body. After Christ, Mary reveals to us most profoundly the “original” meaning of body that needs to remain present within sexual-marital love. In her fiat, we discover the contemplative meaning of the body (Mary “pondered these things in her heart”). In this light, contrary to what is assumed in the dominant culture, women have a naturally more profound sense (than do men) of the implicit, and of interiority or of what develops slowly-organically and from within. Women have a naturally more profound sense of mystery and thus of what is entailed in the unveiling of the body–for example, an organic in contrast to mechanical sense of time, and consequently a different idea of the meaning and significance of nakedness itself.

A theology of the body which does not sufficiently integrate a Marian and feminine dimension in these ways, cannot but default into what becomes a one-sided and distorted male approach that treats the body too explicitly and too reductively as the object of a look (even if a “pure” one). The result is a tendency, for example, to conflate modesty with prudishness or guilt-induced shame, with a consequent displacement of modesty in its true meaning as an enhancement of genuine bodily beauty.

*****

I have returned at some length to these issues because I believe they bear profoundly on how the theology of the body, and of human sexuality, is properly to be understood. Except for the purpose of responding to Waldstein on West in the matter of concupiscence, I have stated the issues in their own terms and without reference to West. To be sure, I believe each of the issues poses significant questions with respect to West’s theology of the body. But I also want to emphasize again in conclusion what I said at the outset: I have no desire to see his project fail. My intention in this and my earlier statement has been to say enough only to identify problematic tendencies, which seem to me serious. My intention, in other words, has been to lift a horizon of objective concerns into relief, for the purpose of inviting reflection by all those involved or interested in West’s project.

Here, then, is the main point I wish to stress in conclusion. None of those involved in this discussion, myself emphatically included, question the depth of West’s faithful love for the Church and indeed for humanity. Regarding the issues I have raised, it seems to me that what we–all of us–need to do is to ponder them reflectively. Given the nature of what is at stake, and the vast and varied forms of West’s work, these issues have no hope of being resolved through an endless to-and-fro of citation/example and counter-citation/example. The issues will be resolved not by a call to arms, but only by inviting all involved to patient reflection.

Some persons have suggested to me in this context that we hold a conference to discuss matters. My response is that conferences surely have their place. Regarding such events, nevertheless, it needs to be said that one of the great problems of our time, in our culture and indeed also in our Church, is not that we do not have enough dialogue, but that on the contrary we have too much dialogue of the wrong sort. Conferences allow persons to gather together and reassure each other of their mutual good intentions, and this can be helpful; and they also often enable verbal agreements to be reached. The verbal agreements reached in such settings, however, are almost always premature: more the result of strategic management than the fruit of living transformation through genuine and sustained thinking. Only the latter kinds of agreements suffice in the present case.

The theology of the body–or anthropology of love–is of crucial significance for the Church and indeed for humanity, in light of the great gift of John Paul II and Benedict XVI as interpreters of the Second Vatican Council. Service to the Church and humanity in connection with this anthropology is a matter above all of communicating in its integrity the truth about the nature and destiny of the human being before God. The condition sine qua non for realizing such service is sustained thought linked with prayerful patience, and these of their essence take time. Above all in this context, we need to see that the issues implicit in this anthropology have to be pondered for their own sake, in light of the whole of human experience illumined by the whole of the faith, and guided in a special way by both the life and thought of John Paul II and Benedict XVI. Defense of our own positions matters only in terms of the always anterior need for accountability to the integrity of truth for its own sake.

It is somewhat ironic that, simultaneous with the exchanges regarding the work of Christopher West, Michael Waldstein and I are in the process of discussing in the pages of Communio various questions pertinent to the theology of the body. I posed some questions to him, and he has replied with some challenging questions of his own. I am deeply grateful for his questions, which have made me think about significant aspects of things that I had not thought through sufficiently before. He has prompted me to re-think my position in important ways. I believe there are still differences between us, and indeed that these differences are not insignificant: that in fact they reach to the heart of what it means to be a creature, a gift ex nihilo from God. But I trust he agrees that the discussion has been, and will continue to be, fruitful.

I mention this discussion only because, if it seemed appropriate, I would like to offer West the pages of Communio for his reflections on the matters that have been engaged. To be sure, he may want to reformulate the issues in his own way, but I believe both of us agree regarding the spirit which alone would make such an exchange into the kind of fruitful service we both want. I would only emphasize in this connection, to all those who have followed the present discussion, that this exchange, needless to say, would have to take time.



Please note that all comments are moderated.

*Name:
 
 

thank you

I appreciate Dr. Schindler's clearly well-thought out response. I think a respectful discussion is needed for the sake of truly understanding the depth of the pope's theology of the body.


Tone differences in Schindler's 2nd response reveal truth in Waldenstein-Smith

Schindler's response to the defenses put forth by Waldenstein and Smith was a well-articulated piece that I enjoyed reading as much as I would enjoy reading his thoughts in Communio. However, the lucidity of this article in no way makes up for the charged, confused, and hurried content of his first public criticism of West. In my opinion, the tone of the two articles was so different that I am led to believe even more deeply that Waldenstein and Smith have hit upon something true despite Schindler's well-worded rebuttal. I believe that Schindler should have acknowledged and apologized for the hurt to West's character that he created in his first article. In charity, I would like to believe that he simply must not have known the impact his words might have in the forum to which they were introduced. However, I have already heard from three different organizations that because of Schindler's first article, and the CNA article which quoted von Hildebrant and Granados, have decided to exclude West from speaking invitations. Despite his wish that West's project not fail, Schindler has at least played a part in slowing it down.

In conversations I've had with others regarding this topic, there is a popular belief that West does not listen to critics, and indeed blows them off. These comments smack of detraction if they're true and calumny if they are not. Both of these are objectively grave sins because the murder the character of another. Something is deeply broken about this whole series of articles. I await West's reply with great interest.

Paul


After reading & reading Prof Schindler's response Drs West & Waldstein, I think the BIG difference between West & Schindler is that West speaks plain English that us common folk can understand & relate to. With all due respect to you Prof. Schindler, I know these are deep subjects but what good does it do for someone to present them in a way that lay people can not understand?

I have learned a tremendous amount about my Catholic faith from the way that Christopher West & Janet West have presented the Theology of the Body material. I appreciate what they are doing and I pray that the Holy Spirit will continue to guide them in presenting the Truth.

Mike


need for prayer

My comments are: I have always been a person who generally thinks Catholics should not be divisive, however, I have long been uncomfortable with the popular TOB presentations, and I think it is time that people spoke out. It is sort of like the story of "The Emperor's New Clothes", where everyone is admiring something and then someone in the crowd (Dr. Schindler) finally speaks out and says, in effect, that something is missing (clothes on the emperor/modesty and decorum in Mr. West's talks) However, not to be divisive, let us all join together and pray that we Catholics can love one another and focus on our Lord Jesus. When there is a storm, it is always time to turn to prayer.

mary


I think Dr. Schindler's first and second articles make a clear case.

The point IS NOT that everything West has written is wrong. Nor is the point that everything that he has said is wrong. Rather, what is crucial here is this: West focuses disproportionately on "sex" leaving the greater work of JP II's theology of the body behind, and even if West is off base just 5% of the time, that is more than enough to do serious harm.

On theological matters, it's simply not good enough to be right "often."

So the many testimonials about West helping certain individuals are interesting, and no one doubts he has helped many people. The question is, could he help more and worry fewer?

Arguing that we should judge by "his fruits" when they're mixed, is typically both partisan and not compelling. We have seen more than one embarrassing outcome from that argument when it's made by partisans who think their "positive" fruits are the only ones that count.

There is a reason the Church waits years to canonize people and weighs legacies in their totalilty.

In addition, there are two items - one from Schindler's first piece, and one from Nightline - that I think have been overlooked in general.

First, Schindler clearly quoted West, chapter and verse, something Schindler's critics glossed over dismissively. What West has said, and what West has written are equally important here, and he, and his defenders would do well to answer the reports Schindler cites, not simply pass over them quickly.

Second, and this is really important, the Nightline debacle did not happen by accident. As Dr. Schindler points out, West went on, "not unwillingly." In fact, West has a PR firm working for him that alerted many, including me, to his Nightline appearance prior to its airing.

Whether or not West proactively sought out Nightline through his PR firm is an open question, but what is certain is that West, a man with access to extensive PR advice, went on Nightline  despite, or perhaps unaware of, the risks. He now seems to regret that decision.

The lesson here is this: if you aren't ready for prime-time and its consequences, don't seek it out or make an appearance.

One thing I think we can all be sure of: having been called distorters of his message, and blamed for the whole debacle, despite West's willing participation, ABC won't be calling West back any time soon.

The handling of the Nightline episode (going on without properly addressing the risks and then attacking ABC's coverage) seems to be a real lapse of judgement.

That, I believe, is Schindler's point with regard to West. It isn't that his intentions are bad, nor that he is always wrong, but his judgment in certain situations isn't always the best.

This is especially important because West is someone who seeks to discuss the Theology of the Body in public and with ah high profile.

Those who believe this debate should be left to the pages of an academic journal should remember that it is public comments that are being discussed - in public.

What West says - and how it is taken - has consequences, and those it seems aren't always good.


The True Theology of the Body, Please

My husband and I have been following this discussion with great interest in part because we have decided that we wanted to devote our retirement years to the promotion of TOB primarily among the college students in the universities near us. We were drawn to TOB because it seemed to be a systematic explanation of many things that we had learned through our struggles in married life. Hearing that concupiscence could be mastered and following Christopher West's advice on how to overcome it, was the final piece in repairing many years of strife in our marriage. It saddens me to think that what we experienced was merely a delusion and that the years of peace we have experienced in our relationship need to be discarded because we were not dealing in reality. We can go back to the relationship we had with the wall of tension that came between us, but it will be done with deep regret.

I have been reading TOB on concupiscence and it seems to me that what JPII says is in accord with what Christopher West has been teaching. Would anyone like to pursue this with us and read some pertinent passages and see who seems to be more faithful to what JPII is saying? The audience from July 21, 1982 seems to me to be saying what Christopher teaches--that the redemption of the body makes it possible today to "achieve victory over sin and over concupiscence." It also seems to clearly state that concupiscence resides in the heart which I took to be distinct from the body. Is there anyone who would be willing to read this lecture to see which is the correct position?

The issues of nakedness and modesty seem to me to be taken, by Dr. Schindler, in a very Western manner. I do not believe that the African, Australian Aborigine or Native American cultures would have at all the same opinion on modesty that Dr. Schindler espouses.

We would very much like for this conflict to be resolved because we are unsure as to how to proceed with our plans for the future at the present time. If one were to take a tally of those knowledgeable in this area who have expressed their opinions, I would have to call it nearly a draw which is not helpful. Who has the authority to settle this disagreement?

Lauretta


Theology of the Body

The only time I have ever heard West speak is on a CD that I purchased. I had only heard strongly favorable things about his work previously. Listening to the CD, I began to feel uncomfortable with what he was saying. It was not necessarily that he was wrong theologically but it seemed to me he had become downright raw. It has dawned upon me that young people today have been desensitized by what they are exposed to at school, on TV and the movies; so they do not react with the same feelings of being violated by West as I have. He has helped people but he has also overstepped the limits of virtuous modesty with the means he has used by not teaching with beauty and sensitivity. Christ died naked upon the cross but we do not find it necessary to become fixated upon his bodily parts to realize the full impact of his sacrifice of love. The body is good but it depends upon the spirit to free it from its natural inclination toward corruption. Adam and Eve covered themselves because of their weakness after the fall. Is it possible that West may cross the line by not preaching and teaching with purity? Did the late Pope find it necessary for sexual relations to become focused upon the sexual organs and sex acts that are widely regarded as repulsive in order to take couples from theological abstraction into warm, relaxed intimacy. West MAY be theologically correct but his presentation may be of more value for those who have already been desensitized morally by showing them how to express the beauty of participated creativity with noble elegance.

Terry Beth Lewerenz


Theology of the Body

I was wondering if West, himself, has commented or responded to any of these discussions regarding his own work?  It would be fruitful in the overall debate to hear his thoughts.  Hopefully he will put something out in response to, or re-evaluating his own answers/actions that sparked this discussion in the first place. 

Karin


Waiting for Answers

Lauretta, your comment seemed to capture the hearts of so many of us in this debate.  It's hard to live in the questions when the answers have such a huge impact on our lives and our plans for the future.  I think this is a very healthy conflict that all of us who care about the theology of the body can take to prayer.

David Schindler's words from this article really helped me in my prayer last night: 
?Women have a naturally more profound sense (than do men) of the implicit, and of interiority or of what develops slowly-organically and from within. Women have a naturally more profound sense of mystery and thus of what is entailed in the unveiling of the body?for example, an organic in contrast to mechanical sense of time?

I'm praying for those involved and allowing the answers to be unveiled as God shows them to us.  I love the idea that the answers will grow organically from the Holy Spirit's movement within. 

It looks like you?re going to the right place by reading TOB.  And I think some answers are coming forth, like an exciting presentation that Christopher West and Dr. Healy (professor of philosophy at Franciscan University of Steubenville, who has been teaching a course on the nature of love, using Von Hildebrand, Wojtyla, Pieper, Kierkegaard and others for nearly three decades) gave together for The Personalist Project last Wednesday.  Here are Dr. Healy's comments on it, specifically your question on concupiscence might be clarified by listening to that presentation when they make it available on line. http://www.thepersonalistproject.org/index.php/TPP/the_linde/1290/

Rachel


TOB controversy

I have just finished running a TOB course using West's "Intro... to the Theology of the Body" DVD's. It was very well received. One of the most revealing comments was "How come we're just getting to hear about this work of Pope JPII?
  I "betch'a" 90 % of the people who have heard of TOB have heard it from West's work. Splitting hairs along theological lines is not a layman's cup of tea. Is someone jealous?

Jerry Fournier


Who is causing the scandal?

One has to remember whose teaching is being discussed here.  Ultimately, JPII is the one who came up with this teaching and a lot of what I hear being complained about is what the Pope himself said.  I read recently of a model from Poland who said that the Pope's TOB was what motivated her in part to do what she does.  She didn't say it was from Christopher West but the Pope.  And what she does many would call scandalous since she is one of the top swimsuit models in the world.  The Pope's teaching is very radical and is often, I believe, misunderstood by people on both sides of the issue--the Puritans and the sexual revolution group.
I believe one of the main differences between the way Christopher teaches it and the way many others teach it is the fact that when Christopher is finished you have no doubt about the fact that you need to amend your life because you have misunderstood many things about your sexuality and relationships. With other teachers, their presentation is done at such an intellectual level that people tend to keep it at that level.  Christopher makes you understand what this teaching means in your every day life and what a change you will have to make in the way you think and act to follow this teaching.  And it is difficult!

Many of the Church's teachings are misunderstood by various people and used in ways that the Church never intended but does that mean we should quit teaching truth?  I don't think so.

Often people will put their own spin onto a teaching and try to then say that the teacher said something that, in fact, he did not say.  I have heard that with my own ears about Christopher West's teaching from people we have presented his tapes to.  This teaching is something that, I believe, needs to be listened to or read several times in order to purify our own minds from distorted ways of looking at this subject--particularly as it applies to sexuality and marital relationships but even how we view the body in general.  It is only when we have purified ourselves in that way that we can begin to understand what this teaching is actually saying.

It is sad to me that we are fighting among ourselves about this when we have so many grave attacks being waged upon us today from those outside of the faith.  We need to stop nitpicking each other to death and come together to fight the onslaught that is upon us from the outside.  Those in the pro-life movement do the same thing and it really weakens their effectiveness.  Why don't we just let each person present the Church's position on these issues in their own way and appreciate that each method is effective in certain situations but not in others.  We might be surprised at how much we can accomplish if we begin fighting our enemies instead of each other!

Lauretta


 Again, Christopher West addresses all these concerns in his materials

The irritatingly ironic part of this is that Christopher West addresses all three of Dr. Schidler's concerns in his engagement series, 'God's Plan for a Joy-Filled Marriage'.  This 6 part series was my first in depth exposure to Christopher's teaching on the TOB.

Christpher speaks in that series about the challenge of concupiscence in the context JP II does of hardness of heart.  These are JP II's words from the TOB.  West very effectively makes the participant aware of the challenge we face as well as Christ's call to experience a change of heart.

Secondly, West spends most of his first talk on the retreat talking about how the spousal love we desire is primarily meant to point us to the love we are created for, God's love.  Not surprisingly, it is the most boring and dry part of the whole presentation because it impacts the participants day to day experiences the least.  (I have many cheap shots I am thinking of directing at Dr. Schindler, but I will keep this on the issues at hand.)

Third, the feminine aspect of the TOB and Mary's model for us is addressed in his presentation.  West doesn't club people over the head if the context doesn't call for it, but it is there.  I've also heard him make the point very explicitly on other recordings where it is an important context.

After years of ministry, I have found that people have different gifts to give the church.  Unfortunately in our humanness we tend to impose our way of doing things on others as 'the' way to help them.  In this case I see Dr. Schindler imposing his desire to have all the information in every presentation on West's calling to introduce people to these powerful concepts.  They have different callings and different gifts to server the Church.  The error I see in many of the academics who are criticizing Christopher West is they've stepped beyond the line of following their gifts to degrading those who don't use their gifts (in this case West) in the same way.

As someone once told me, 'you can be right at the top of your voice, but be wrong' because of how you say something.

Jeremy


Unfair

The talks I have been to of his it has been sex, sex, and yes, more about sex. I think it is inacurate in saying that he has grasped all of TOB. I think it is more fair to say he has gotten part of it.

jg77


Very nicely put

Dr. Schindler has behaved, in my opinion, like a true gentleman and scholar. He offered a "pop" caution and, when called upon for further clarification presented this fine excursus on the essentials of the Theology of the Body. I would like especially to point out how generously he responds to his critics, abstaining from any cheap shots at either Dr. Smith or Dr. Waldstein, even though I think both provided him with ample opportunity with their anecdotes of ashes and pre-intercourse para-liturgies (It seems I'm not quite as gracious).

John-Mark


Thank you Schindler 

It is a given that Matthew Pinto would find it difficult to be objective in defending CW. 

To suggest that numbers attending is indicative of good fruits is using numbers in a manipulative manner.  What is the percentage of those that have read CW books, listened or watched his DVD's/CD, or attended his workshops/conferences that would say they have had a life changing experience, or conclude that they had an emotionally charged experience, or simply thought that TOB is interesting a year later??

My prayer and hope for CW is that he will listen to those that have found his teaching expressions of the body and other teaching materials uncomfortable and not twist the experience of uncomfortableness into saying the issue is because one is uncomfortable about sex or their sexuality. Rather begin to recogniize that he/you CW have something to learn about the experience he/you give people.  The experience is far from perfect or awesome for many many persons who  have had and do have a very healthy sexuality and embrace John Paul 11 teachings with much gratitude. And while you attract, so it seems for the most part those persons that have sexual issues do not assume they are the majority.
And if there is a slim chance that they are a majority, trust the VERY MANY that do not have your sexual issues to have something powerful and beautiful too offer both yourself and those that have/had sexual issues.

CW, you have/has taken too much of the teaching over the edge and somehow wishes to credit or blame the Holy Spirit for directing him!!!!  Well the Holy Spirit is not limited to CW, and I thank Mr. Schindler for his powerful insight and  understanding, as presented in his article, for his doctrine of analogy is dead on and is something West desperately needs to begin to implement. 

Peace be with you Christopher and Matthew.

Annette


response to Schindler 

We know what West is saying has truth.  But Schindler asks us to ask WHY, why and he challenges West because the subtleties are evidence of a meaning not yet grasped well.

I agree this is not a matter of academia.  JP2 after all has much of it done no?

It is a matter of each and every one of us doing the work of metanoia (sp?)

In this manner we can also know with certainty the truth.
Just because the Fathers may have treated the Easter candle as such doesn't mean the audience at large with the sufferings influences of the day are going to go the "right" direction with the same explanation.

FWIW
JennE


proposes a beginning

Schindler sees moral danger perhaps in the foreplay ideas of the opposite group...but then seems to point to a working out of the issue in "doctrinal development" which only later is followed by magisterial clarity which all seems to take?? how many centuries??
Where does this long process leave the married couple who is unfortunate enough to now be caught in the center of this mix through reading about the now two sides.

What is needed from Schindler or his supporters is what Ed Peters began to give when he defended Janet Smith in his citing about 5 moral theologians (Vermeesch et al ) who seemed to allow for unusual acts (to some of us) as foreplay only but permissable therefore as foreplay.  Schindler or supporters should provide opposite citations from moral theology against these acts as foreplay which he seems loathe to do in his favoring meditation on TOB.  He is then giving those lectures of TOB precedence over anything else within tradition and maybe there are other voices throughout the centuries that, like Shindler, oppose such foreplay and their voice should be in the mix and proceed from there since TOB does not itself fall under the highest levels of authority if one were to note that traditionally, a Pope's lectures seem to have less weight than apostolic letters which  themselves are less than encyclicals and most of those are non infallible.

If there is the actual moral danger that Schindler and others fear, then centuries or decades of mulling this over theologically from TOB and going back and forth about it as though it were the topic of the Assumption which did not have a moral activity element.....such mulling over seems out of place.

Indeed Rome should form a think tank and research the literature of both sides throughtout tradition so that we at least know what Catholics thought outside of John Paul II and Schindler and West.  To mull over this area with the slow plodding with which we treat areas like liturgical changes is bizarre if this is an area of such moral danger which liturgy and the Assumption etc are not susceptible of and thus those topics can be treated slowly.

But Schindler is saying there is moral danger to these acts and therefore let's go through the process of doctrinal development which in the case of slavery e.g. for those who have really read in that area...took centuries and centuries from Augustine and Aquinas justifying it....to later Popes opposing it but not with much back up of interdicting countries who maintained it and so it continued even within religious orders in the 19th century and with Bishop England defending it in "Catholic Miscelany" then also.

bill bannon


Excellent

I am glad to read the comments of Dr. Schindler. In my own study of TOB over the years I have become increasingly unsatisfied by its popular presentation, in particular the one exemplified by the work of Christopher West. For my own part, I always recommend his books to couples but at the same time I offer very specific correctives. I am glad to see that the issues that I, and others, have seen in the treatment of the TOB give by Christopher West are shared by someone who has thoughtfully constructed arguments with a mind toward the the greater tradition of Moral Theology.

Some others, here, have noted that the popularity of Christopher West's presentation is what draws people to his work. I would agree with this. However, no matter the clarity, if his positions on the interpretation of particular aspects of the thought of John Paul II are wrong then they need correction. My own concern is for the application of his interpretation of the TOB. This is where the "rubber meets the road" so to speak. In at least one of his books he allows for at least two practices between spouses that have always been regarded as immoral. It is in this area, the application of thought in practical actions, that is crucial to critique. Dr. Schindler provides a beginning to this conversation on the authentic interpretation of the work of John Paul II.

Br. Gabriel, OP


Criticism of West

Excuse me, but isn't criticism really nothing more than advice? Humility is needed here.

Rebecca


JOHN PAUL'S THOUGHT 

I have great respect for Prof. Schindler, with whom I have written an article, and for Chris West, whose book I read.  Having written a dissertation on JP2 back in 1985--when it was definitely not "cool" in American Catholic theology departments to do that--I want to urge a "let a thousand flowers bloom" approach.  John Paul's thought on sexuality is valuable and liberating--and dated, in the sense that since he wrote on this subject, the whole sexual dimension of bioethics has exploded.  What we desperately need are people taking JP2's thought and applying it, developing it, fitting it to new problems, and popularizing it....  Undoubtedly, along the way, mistakes will be made, but Wojtyla's thought should not be a museum piece but a living contribution to the Church.  In Poland, I fear that too many theologians and philosophers are still writing dissertations saying in 300 pages when Wojtyla said in 30, while adding precious little new.  I also fear that creative thinkers like Wojtyla and Von Balthasar (with whom I also have issues) are being put on the shelf and admired rather than used as the basis for expanding and developing their thought.  So let's continue, let's dispute among ourselves (which is good for theology) but let's recognize that, in comparison with the schools that unfortunately still dominate too many "Catholic" theology departments at American Catholic colleges and universities, those of us working with Wojtyla's thought clearly want to sentire cum ecclesia.....

JOHN GRONDELSKI


Loretta puts it like this:

"What JPII says is in accord with what Christopher West has been teaching."

This reversal is very revealing. What JPII taught is not to accord with what West teaches, but what West teaches is to accord with JPII taught.

Jitpring


 Thank you Dr Schindler for your well thought out reply. I wish more people would read that Dr Schindler is one of Mr West's former teachers. As such and with the responsibility of not only a brother in Christ but that of a teacher (in a sense a father of sorts) he has undertaken the correction of Mr. West's teaching. He is not denying that Mr West is right on points but wishes that he clarify, define properly and adjust as it as necessary. No one who has a valuable gem wishes it to remain in the rough. It is more beautiful and valuable after it has been carefully cut and polished. It may be hard to see but that is what is happening with Mr West.

While Mr. West may be popular and influential. Dr Schindler is well established in a totally different circle and has no need to feel threatened by Mr West. Only a demagogue seeks the attention of everyone.  I do not believe that anyone one would apply that label after giving it serious thought.  We should take his words at face value about his desire for Mr West to succeed. To do otherwise is uncharitable.

Another note is that just because we may not understand him does not mean he is wrong.

I believe one thing (amoungst others) he is concerned about is the loss of modesty in our culture. Modesty is objectively a virtue. It applies to the body as well as speech. One who is modest in body (in a sense) but not in speech is not truly modest. It is important that it pervades our life.

Following the lead of our immodest society (or any other culture that does not value modesty) is like saying we will jump off the cliff with a person only half way. Obviously neither party benefits from our generosity. The purpose of the spousal relationship and act are not intended to be an end in itself. Rather it is to be stepping stones to God- in a sense. Without modesty true humilty is not present. Without humility one can not enter heaven. As it is written the proud shall not stand in Thy sight.

Let us be charitable and realize that we all need correction at times and that we should appreciate those who do it and thank them for it as so many of the saints did to those who rebuked them (rightly and wrongly). If we lose charity then neither do we posses modesty or humility. We should remember that when leaving comments and rebukes. Catholics should wish to see both Dr Schindler and Mr West in a amicable unity as I am sure that is what God desires. We shouldn't seek to further divide what God wants to be one (in the Faith). Lets stick to seeking the Truth, refrain from personal attacks and carefully/ charitably read what others have posted before replying. Don't forget the Scripture says the tongue is a world of inquity and compares it to a sword as well as a fiery arrow- use it carefully. If we don't use it righteously we will regret it later. God bless all.

Bob


Okay, Jitpring, I have no problem with re-phrasing that sentence even though, from a written standpoint, I have my reasons for phrasing it in the way in which I did.  I was asking for comments, however, on whether the two teachings, that of Pope John Paul and Christopher West, are in agreement with each other on the issue of concupiscence.  I would very much like your opinion on that.

Lauretta


I count myself among those who are grateful to West for introducing the TOB.  I truly believe that the TOB is the antidote for the sexual revolution and that West is in the front of this spiritual battle.

However, it's advisable to not confuse gratitude with blind loyalty.  In this sense, West does have some issues.  I confess that much of this article went over my head, unlike West's writings, but I have to agree that there is a problem with the style and format that West often employs.  It's more than a matter of preference, for, as others have noticed too, it touches on lack of modesty and decorum.

Now, West has taken criticism many times before, according to his own words recently on EWTN's "Life on the Rock".  So I'm confident that West will take a pause and take the most out of this.  He's a pretty humble guy filled with love for God and for His Church.  He embraces the gifts that God has bestowed on him and strives to put them at His service.  He does not go around promoting the TOB for his own sake, but for the Kingdom's sake.

Augustine


 I have already commented in a number of websites about the impact that Christopher West has had on my life?These comments are primarily based on the personal transformation that I have experienced as a result of going to ten of his seminars and all three of the week-long certification courses offered by the Theology of the Body Institute in Quarryville Pennsylvania?

I would like now to address the experiences I have been having as I try to evangelize about this wonderful body of work put forth by Pope John Paul II and so compellingly presented by Christopher.

[As an aside I would just like to point out why so many of us refer to him in our comments as ?Christopher? and not ?West?.  Those who attend his courses cannot help but  discover that he is connecting with everyone present as a brother in Christ.  I do not refer to my three brothers by our surname; I call them by the names given to them when they were baptized. That is what works here too.]

To lead up to my point, I want to mention that I had been a national management consultant (having given over 1,000 seminars and working for the Dept. of Commerce to judge a national quality award) for many years.  The reason I mention this is that it would seem that I had developed some communication skills along the way.  Yet, when I first went to see the Theology of the Body seminar that Christopher gave in Kingston NY in June 2007, I was struck dumb.   It was so compelling and so moving and so rational a presentation that even though I thought I would like to spread the message, I did not think I would be able to do this. So I went to the HEAD AND HEART IMMERSION COURSE (TOB I) in August of that same year.  I took over 100 pages of notes.   I then attended every seminar offered by Christopher within a radius of 100 miles of my home.  I took copious notes every time, even though most of these courses were the same as the ones I had attended before?In each of these seminars, I learned so many wonderful and new ideas, because Christopher?s presentation of these truths seemed to evolve into something even more vibrant each time I went.

Bernadette


Jim Likoudis has written a beautiful article about this subject for Christian Order, April 2009, London, England. You can find it on his Homepage. Title: Sexual Salvation without Repression and Condemnation.

Sally Biskner


Thank you Dr. Schindler.  As one who has listened to different C.W. tapes at the urging of others, I always end up turning them off.  I find them embarrassing.  I am not puritanical, but I don't want someone else's images in my mind.  They pierce a veil that I as a woman find offensive.  I would not want my husband to give such a lecture to others, as it violates something that belongs to us.  Therefore, I don't want to listen to another man speak in such a way.  If it is not appropriate for a priest to be so graphic, which I assert, I don't think it is for a lay person to a room full of people.  The marital relationship is beautiful and in all ways should be kept between the two.  Any questions are best taken up in the safety of the confessional.
I am a fan of JPII and his respectful and beautiful writings about women.

Kathleen


It is often the case that the popular, non-scholarly exchanges between authors on their views regarding subtle points in theology are easier to follow and than those subtle points and lack of agreement thereupon which initiated the debate itself.  For his part, Dr. Schindler has aptly addressed and put into plain language what so many have already felt, or, to greater and lesser degrees, have come to understand.

He has met West on West's own venue.

His first letter was not hasty, just pithy and precisely accurate.  He supplies only a few, but no less real--indeed, paradigmatic examples which have no need for clarification.  The are as evidently errant as the day is long.  His second letter does not constitute a change in his disposition, nor is it capitulatory.  He rather points to yet other problems, adding to the number he addressed before.  

It would seem to me that among Schindler's principle concerns is centered on the remediation of West's theology, not its death.  There is much to salvage.  Finally, Schindler knows that history bears witness to fact that there is no "unsound theology" so dangerous as that which comports itself--indeed, actually is so nearly "sound theology." 

John Johnson 


 As a youth who has been "desensitized" by the sexually-charged culture, I cannot help but to defend West. If we youth are desensitized, it becomes even more necessary to be taught in real terms how to appropriately approach our sexuality. Otherwise we inevitably end up struggling with unanswered "what ifs" and "what abouts".

I am struggling with a certain unease having read this response. It reads rather like an old professor whining about the success of a former pupil. This highlights the drastic difference between West and Schindler: the former's work is intended for the masses, the latter's for the elite. We cannot all be Aquinases. We cannot all be John Pauls. Theology must be brought to a level understandable by the majority - West is at least trying to do that. If his theology is awry, and one can only presume that would happen in the couching of it in layman's language, he can correct it.

The fact remains, however, that West is trying. I cannot say that about Schindler, especially after this lengthy, erudite response. Schindler explicitly states he chose not to counter any specific assertion of West's in favor of a theological lecture that fails miserably to put West's theology in place (namely, because Schindler refused to counter any specific assertion).

I cannot believe, despite his assertion to the contrary, that Dr. Schindler has any desire to see West succeed. If he had, would it not have been prudent first to approach West privately to discuss his concerns over his theology? One would not accuse a friend of adultery in front of a group of people before attempting to speak privately. It is only after private words fail that public censure becomes necessary.

Mary


 Although most of what West says is correct, I think he is wrong in fundamental ways.

For many years, our Church has been a mess:  was the damage fundamentally caused by external or internal factors?  Although the Church can be impacted by external persecutions, I don't believe that the loss of faith that we've seen has any external explanation.  The Church has the ability to thrive in even the most hostile environments (which is not surprising since God is all powerful).

If the damage was caused internally, then at least some changes in the Church were a rejection of the Holy Spirit--not a gift.

Of course, we've been living in a sewer of a society, but we've opened the windows of the Church to it.  A question upon which orthodox Catholics disagree is the degree to which we can embrace the secular culture and transform it--or should we reject it?

In that regard, JP2 called for a new Christian feminism, but not a new Christian Nazism, Communism, or atheism.  He largely accepted the feminist view--except where it directly and unambiguously contradicted Catholicism.  I think that was a mistake:  feminism is fundamentally based upon falsehood and evil, and must be rejected.  (I view feminism has having nothing at all to do with the equality of the sexes, but rather as a force of hate and destruction of the family.)

West took JP2, and went further. 

There is no room here to detail my overall disagreements.  Just a few thoughts:

1.  The "sex object" feminist critique was always wrong.  Healthy men are not attracted to objects--such as blow up dolls.  True, art can be beautify, but only insofar as it speaks to real, living womanhood--and even then it is not directly sexual.  (By the way, this is not particularly good news.)  Searching for our problems based upon a false hypothesis is not the route to understanding.

2.  A direct and profound critique of feminism (as inhuman Marxism) is a necessary part of any sound understanding.

3.  The feminist myth of universal male oppression overlooks the power of love.  That false Marxist view is a mistake no Christian should never make.  Women had no legal rights in St. Paul's day, but he still thought that a man would be preoccupied with pleasing his wife if he married.

4.  Focusing on ourselves is not the solution to our problems.  It is a very plausible initial step, but it may be that we are so self-centered that we can never really make the transition unless we abandon it altogether.  In short, it is just possible that the personalist approach may be a dead end.

Steve


 Can we move on already! It's amazing how Satan uses such things to distracts us from service and divides us as brothers and sisters. How many more hours will we waste arguing our points, trying to prove I'm right? Christ did not argue with his executioners so what are we doing? Lord grant us the humility to accept our human fraility.

From the desire of being esteemed,
Deliver me, Jesus.

From the desire of being loved... 
From the desire of being extolled ...
From the desire of being honored ...
From the desire of being praised ...
From the desire of being preferred to others...
From the desire of being consulted ...
From the desire of being approved ...
From the fear of being humiliated ...
From the fear of being despised...
From the fear of suffering rebukes ...
From the fear of being calumniated ...
From the fear of being forgotten ...
From the fear of being ridiculed ...
From the fear of being wronged ...
From the fear of being suspected ...

John Michael Benjamin Voithofer


As a laywoman, I am thankful for the public discussion that has come from Christopher West's interview on Nightline and especially thankful for that which David Schindler has expressed. I recommend a book entitled The Future of Adam and Eve: Finding the Lost Gift by Mary Rosera Joyce, who calls for a true sexual revolution that is only made possible by bringing Eve out from under the rib of Adam. to give voice to what woman has to offer.  A true sexual revolution depends not only on a renewed Adam but just as vitally on a renewed Eve, with one each uniquely and intentionally different but with the capacity for both inner and correlative unity. She exposes the limitations of the "too male-ish" theology of the West and the "too feminine" pantheism of the East and calls instead for an ontological theology, a consciousness of being which equips the seeker of Truth with Wisdom that avoids the common distortions of "Gnostic, Origenistic, occult, or new age" thinking so prevalent in today's culture. While David Schindler tells what might be going wrong in interpreting the theology of sexuality, Mary Joyce offers how to prevent and/or correct flaws in interpretation.

Juliana Davis

 

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